Mr. Adnan Oktar’s Live Conversation with Dr. Wafik Moustafa, Chairman of British Arab Network on A9 TV (January 14th, 2016)
Presenter: Our guest this evening, Dr. Wafik Moustafa, a politician from Britain of Egyptian origin. Let me refer to some of the main institutions to which he is connected. Dr. Moustafa is the founder and chairman of the British Arab Network. He is also one of the co-founder of the Inter-Parliamentary Coalition for Global Ethics. He is the former leader of the British Egyptian community, and once stood for the British Parliament. For the last 25 years he has represented Arab minorities in British politics. He is also a doctor of medicine and has written books about the Arab Spring in Egypt. His views are often sought by the Arab and international media. He has just come from a conference in the Israeli Parliament on the importance of religious leaders in politics.
Adnan Oktar: Welcome, thank you very much for coming. You honored us with your presence.
Dr. Wafik Moustafa: I’m very honored to come to Turkey. I always had special feelings for Turkey, for Turkish people. You got a very big, special connection to Egypt for 500 years almost. We are family. We’re Ottomans.
Adnan Oktar: Egypt and Turkey need to be very modern. I hear that you are doing very valuable work on this, insha’Allah. Insha’Allah we will do even more good. I think it will be a very good thing for world peace and the Islamic world for both Turkey and Egypt to reach the stage of becoming European countries, or even better.
Dr Wafik Moustafa: I believe that Egypt and Turkey have got lots of similarities, although in reality, Turkey obviously has moved along for almost 90 years, where Egypt have had some troublesome times for last 50-60 years. That’s why we had the Arab Spring and the problem we have with military government and of course the deep state at the moment. I think Turkey particularly can play a facilitating role and it is well placed for that, because it is the only Islamic country, which can connect East-West. And at the same time, it has proven that Islam and democracy are not incompatible. Islam can work with democracy and democracy can work with Islam and that way we have a successful country like Turkey, which I believe is a very important country because it is a member of NATO, and one of the world powers, and Middle East country and historical links; will be an ideal country to facilitate and to help change Egypt and the Arab world after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. I think I look forward to that and I hope there will be some use of this huge experience and links of Turkey.
Adnan Oktar: Turkey really is in a key position on this subject, and needs to be very powerful. The domestic opposition and government need to forge an alliance to collaborate as one on this vital duty because this is no ordinary task. At stake is the future of the whole Islamic world and the whole Turkish world. Injury to Turkey means the entire Islamic world being injured. However, we need to put our relations with the Egyptians right, as a matter of urgency. Turkey may be able to contribute to a return to a modern Egypt, but politicians do not have much power on this. We have come across a structure that espouses a classic, traditionalist conception of Islam. I invited people close to Morsi to Turkey when he came to power. I strongly advised a modern Egypt. But they concentrated on tourism. And this tragedy then ensued. Nevertheless, it doesn't change anything. Hard work is needed to make Egypt one of the most modern countries in the region once again. But the leading role falls to Turkey. We insistently forward this view to the Turkish government. I describe the vital importance of Turkey becoming an ultramodern country, even more modern than those of Europe.
Dr Wafik Moustafa: Well the turbulence in Arab world is you know, it is cascading into different countries like in Saudi Arabia and Libya and Yemen and Syria. Iraq is totally dysfunctional and Libya. So I think the Arab world is really in huge turbulence. And indeed Islam itself is facing problem, because people are confusing political power with the essence and the principles of religion. And I think it’s very important. That’s why I say Turkish example is very important for us all. Because it’s the only democracy in an Islamic country in the world, in the Middle East as well, and connecting to Europe. If we take Malaysia, but Malaysia is far away. It’s more associated to Asia. So I think the problem as well is respecting the human rights. Respecting the youth, the youth started this uprising in Egypt five years ago and removed the Mobarak. They chanted, they are very angry, they are disappointed because there are no jobs, no future, no democracy. When you see a parliament in Egypt, ninety six per cent of people do not turn up to vote, that’s a worry. It means that the current regime has not satisfied people’s needs, plus economy is faltering all the time. Egyptian economy is very poor, hardly going at 2%.
Adnan Oktar: The intellectuals of the Islamic world need to come together. Worthy intellectuals such as you. Rational Muslim intellectuals from Morocco, Tunisia, Libya and Turkey need to come together in a common front to cleverly expose the harm caused by traditional, orthodox Islam. Traditionalist, orthodox Islam has ruined the Islamic world. But it did not come out of thin air. It has a root; a source. A modern conception of Islam based on the Qur’an needs to be developed against it. A modern or ultramodern conception in the European sense needs to be produced. It needs to be made clear that music, sculpture and painting are all lawful in Islam, and intellectuals must make a joint decision about the importance of raising art, technology and science to the highest levels.
There are many intellectuals in Muslim countries, but they are concealed. They do not come out in the open. When I say devout, I do not mean ultra conservative people. Clean, honest, rational people of good conscience would be sufficient. They must come together. It is such a shame that all this is happening to Muslim countries. A large congress or assembly can be held to save these countries and make them all brothers, and to eradicate all this violence and horror.
Freemasons can also take part, and Knights Templar. Intellectuals of all kinds and religious teachers and scholars can take part. They must say that we either have to go along with this evil, or else return to a modern conception of Islam. Let such a decision be taken. People cannot go against mass decisions. Turkey is not strong enough on its own. The AKP is in power in Turkey. But AKP gets a higher share of its vote from the traditionalist, orthodox Muslims. It also has to think about them. There is a danger of provoking opposition from traditionalist orthodox Muslims when directly adopting a modern perspective.
They tried to draw closer to Israel to some extent, and those people immediately began shouting and screaming. The government took a subtle step back. So the government is not as free as all that. Europe must also support the government. It is much harder for the government to act freely when Europe also takes a stance against it. Yes, there is an eyeball-to-eyeball fight going on, but in my opinion Great Britain, France, Germany, Europe and the U.S. administration must all support Turkey, on the condition of modernity. Europe and USA must make Turkey a model county, in both economic and social terms. An ideal, modern country. Then Turkey must be presented to the entire Islamic world [and they must say]: ‘Look, these people are rich and cultured and well-informed, and they live by Islam very well. Let us open mosques everywhere. Let there be so many pious people. Let those who wish to cover themselves up do so, let women wear low-cut clothing. Let there be music, painting. All sorts of ideas should be embraced.’
In my opinion, Freemasonry should now abandon its secret side and open itself up. There are a great many Freemason intellectuals in Turkey. There are thousands of Mason intellectuals. But they never make a sound. There is no reason for this secrecy to last until Doomsday. They must now reveal themselves. Everyone must help one another. We should not watch this tragedy any more. People are dying on the seas, and in fighting. This is such a pity. These may be ignorant and misinformed people, some of them. But if we help them we can put them right. They will immediately come to their senses. The whole question is one of culture.
The British secret state apparatus is very ruthless on this subject. It espouses the idea of crushing the ignorant. The U.S. secret state apparatus also supports the idea of crushing the ignorant. But we should really pity the ignorant and have mercy on them. They do not like the way they look, so they seek to crush them. They regard them as ignorant and try to destroy them. But if they were to be educated and become cultured, they could put themselves right and attain the best attitude. But to me, the first step should be, Europe and the world making Turkey a model country.
For example, there is an unnecessary anti-Turkish sentiment. Of course there are ignorant, and tactless and cruel Turks. But generally speaking, Anatolian people are very fine and virtuous. I know that. I have been to many parts of Anatolia. They are compassionate people. We need to get rid of this idea of ruthless Turks. Even if that was true, that could have been eliminated by means of education. So what we need is a vast policy of culture. They should provide enormous economic support. Turkey must become the finest of the whole Islamic world. Let us break the chains of the entire Islamic world under Turkish leadership.
For example, then it can be the turn of Egypt and Syria. Let us treat Syria in a very friendly manner, with great love. Let us treat people in a friendly manner, no matter what group they belong to. In my view, we should even treat terrorists with compassion and educate them. It is possible to get results by educating people, rather than being fixated on the idea that military campaign is the only solution.
Dr. Wafik Moustafa: I think what you said is very clear. We need to start somewhere. Public diplomacy, where we can connect with people. Because not just regimes, and government-to-government, I think what you have said, I, actually in Inter-parliamentary Coalition for Global Ethics, we have talked about ethics in politics. Politics is not just for sake of getting into power. It’s to get people educated, get people together and I feel the Arab world is really having this important link with Turkey, which you mentioned. I am all for it. And I think it’s very healthy, a very good start, because where else can we start? It’s the only country.
All Arab world one day, for hundreds of years, were under the Ottoman Empire influence or government. So I think it will be a very good start. And I’m very happy to come in next weeks to Turkey and help. And all this organization you mentioned is very important for civil society organization, non-governmental organizations. I think it’s very important if we can develop it. And get EU to support us. Particularly Turkey has got a very special relationship with EU. Turkey is a bridge between Europe and the East. And I think it’ll be very effective, very useful and as well it’ll be a good start and people will be able to trust it as well.
Adnan Oktar: We make no claim to be a big brother. As Turkey, we only claim to be the servants. Greatness is a property becoming of God alone. Pretensions to greatness will end in disaster. I would never employ that kind of logic. We are not great, we are the earth, we are ordinary servants of God. We are servants appointed by God, to serve the Muslim world. We can have no duty other than to serve. We can therefore never permit a word describing our country as superior.
But when it comes to the enlightenment of the Islamic world, I mean, Egypt is a country with many intellectuals. Palestine has many intellectuals. But rage and lovelessness are so widespread. Lovelessness has to be eliminated. It is toxic, a scourge, the lack of love. Of course there has to be a powerful faith in God for love to be strengthened. People have to love God. Every group has to be loved. Anti-Semitism has to be eliminated, for example. That just draws God’s wrath. Hatred of Freemasons and Templars, hatred for Christians and for Buddhists, these things must all be eliminated. At the end of the day, they are all servants of God. When people are treated with love and compassion, they will not disturb anyone, as long as they are reasonable people. And there would be nothing wrong with approaching them with love. I mean, God says that there will be Christians and Jews. That is something auspicious for us. I know there have long been many Christians in Egypt. There used to be many in Turkey, but then there was this awful pressure on them on the streets. Their numbers have declined. Some people have rage toward Christians.
Our government is very affectionate towards them. Some people say that the Erdogan administration is harsh and that he is disposed to becoming a dictator. But I know Tayyip Erdogan very well. I know him well. He is actually a soft-hearted person. He is a fine man, a brave one of Anatolia. All right, he may use a strict language, but that is because he is worried that some harm may befall Turkey. He uses that strong language because he is afraid that something may harm the nation or the Islamic world. But I know that he would not hurt an ant, I am sure of this. He would never harm anyone. He is a modest person.
But he has a powerful love of country and Islam, and a powerful urge to protect Muslims. He actually risked a lot and got himself criticized so harshly by Turkish public, by the world. That is the reason for this current opposition to him. Yes, he has brought upon that criticism for himself, but he has done many very useful things, too. At the current state of play, I think that great progress can be made if a clever backing is provided for the AKP government and Mr. Erdogan. Because he is committed to bring beauty and goodness to the Islamic world, and he wants modernity. Tayyip Erdogan’s initial perspective was not a modern one. He had a traditionalist and orthodox way of thinking. But then he wanted a modern conception of Islam we have seen that. But he also has to keep the fanatics in balance. That is of course very difficult. There are many fanatics in every country. But the intellectuals should take the initiative, like yourselves and also ones in Turkey.
For instance, there at least 7000 Masons in Turkey. But they are all hidden and do not reveal themselves. There are many Freemason politicians in state institutions, in key posts. There would be a lot of them if they all stood up one day. People would be shocked. There is this unnecessary rage. Yet affection toward Jews, Freemasons, Knights Templar, Christians and even atheists would result in great developments. From what I can tell there is a great intention to take that step forward in Turkey. For this reason, it is not right that the Europe is placing this unnecessary pressure on the government. Because anyway, there is no other potential alternative government at the moment that could do this task. There is the left, but one part of it is talking about reconciliation with the PKK. They are in a peculiar condition.
But I can see that you harbor the best of intentions on this subject, from what I can tell. I also see that you understand what I mean. Let us speak again with larger teams of people. We can speak in Britain in the future. We can speak in the House of Lords. We can meet the people there. This unnecessary rage and prejudice must be eliminated. This anger towards the Turks is quite inappropriate. All right, there are some not properly acknowledged Turks, but there are a lot of intellectuals, too. Let us educate the ignorant. That would not be hard for us. This unnecessary fear, unnecessary hostility should be eliminated. The potential of Turkey must be put to good use. It can play a leading role in establishing global balances. But the contributions made by such eminent and intellectual people as you are will obviously be very important, as well. Let us not lose touch at all.
Dr. Wafik Moustafa: See I agree totally with you. I want to say this about having institutions like in Turkey, always keep the government active and accountable to its own people. Erdogan is and that’s why his country is, has been prospering under his leadership. And I think it’s important to see this link of reform of Islam, for example Muhammed Abdu, the grand mufti of Egypt, a hundred years ago, who lived in Turkey for a while as well. He was a freemason, for example. He was the grand mufti of Egypt. He understood modernity, he understood Islam cannot be practiced the way Wahhabism is practiced in Saudi Arabia, or in medieval way. So I think it’s important to link with all these organizations, whether it is Masons or Rotary, lots of, hundreds of organizations. And the human rights organizations, which you should link with them. And I think we should link with think tanks. Think tanks can give us a lot of valuable insights about the problems in the Muslim world. Because we in Arab world, I find, we are not willing to think deep into the real problem. We are always shelved into conspiracy of somebody else. That’s why when the Ottoman Empire broke down, at the end of the WWI, it broke so suddenly that the Arab world were lost, were just up for grabs. All the lines between the Arab countries, they are straight lines, divided families, and divided villages. It was very traumatic and I think we are still paying for it today.
Adnan Oktar: I used to be thought of as an anti-Masonic writer. I was thought of as one of those who brought Freemasonry crashing down in Turkey and across the world. But that is not so. I described Freemasonry in all clarity, and I said that its Darwinist-materialist side was very wrong. Then I became a 33rd degree Mason myself and described how Freemasonry is in fact, a reasonable, a humane system. My defense of Freemasonry was 1000 times more effective than their defense of themselves. For example, there is now no opposition to Freemasonry in Turkey. Nothing really serious. I know Freemasonry very well and have researched it very deeply. I am someone who knows all the facts against Freemasonry. But if I am a Freemason then there must be something I know. I would not strive to keep an immoral institution alive. So there must be something good, beautiful in it.
That is why I think the time has come for Freemasons to stand up. The Rotarians and the Lions and all of them are very fine and high quality people. Freemasonry is very powerful in Iran. But they stay hidden. They are very powerful in state institutions. Freemasonry is very powerful in Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, and also in Turkey. So there is no reason to watch this suffering. There are so many rational Muslim intellectuals. But there are some people who are rather supercilious and haughty. But there is a culture of humility in Freemasonry. There are lots of modest, cultured people who are open to new ideas. You can reason with them. They are consistent and balanced. That’s the good thing about Freemasonry. There are people from all kinds of different ideas in Freemasonry, but you can talk to them, reason with them. They are not harsh. They have a reasonable approach. So that is exactly the kind of system the Islamic world needs the most. Insha’Allah, under U.S. and British leadership, we can end this pain for good and turn this dark system into a world of love, wisdom, sophistication, high-quality, where art is championed. But support from people such as yourselves is also exceedingly important, for us.
Dr. Wafik Moustafa: It will be great honor for me. Great honor for me to work with you. And I’m really happy I’ve been invited here. Thank you.
Adnan Oktar: I thank you very much. May God grant you long life, health, and increase your light. Yesterday we also had very valuable guests, they were enlightened and most worthy people who are in leading positions in the world. You, the same way, are an influential, high-quality intellectual. May our Lord increase your number, give you strength and power, enhance your light and protect you from evil. May God guide you with people of good conscience.
Dr. Wafik Moustafa: Thank you.
